&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMITTEE

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;&#9;18TH JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;&#9;GEOFFREY M MFAZO

APPLICATION NO: AM 3888/96

MATTER:&#9;&#9;NOUPOORT MURDER

DAY:&#9;&#9;&#9;1

______________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all. I respectfully declare these proceedings opened, this, the 18th day of January 1999. These proceedings being amongst the first to be held by the Truth and Reconciliation's Amnesty Committee in the new year. Before we commence, may I welcome you all and take this opportunity further to convey the best wishes of this Committee to you all in the new year and not forgetting particularly our diligent staff comprising the logistics officers, the media people, our evidence leader and their analysts, our general staff, without whose support we would not be able to conduct these proceedings as effective as we've been able to. I also want to convey my best wishes to members of the translation services without whose assistance it would be impossible and very cumbersome to conduct these proceedings. My also best wishes to members of the media who have played a very important role in enabling the Commission and this Committee to achieve its important objective. Also my best wishes to members of the legal profession whose assistance has been at most of the best of times very good but at other times quite painful but indispensable. Ms Patel, are we ready to proceed?

MS PATEL: We are, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which matter are we starting with?

MS PATEL: We'll start with the matter of Jeffrey Mfazo, application number 3888/96.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, before we proceed may I introduce the panel which will be sitting for this week to hear all the applications set down for the week? On my right hand side I have Advocate Motata. On my left hand side Advocate Bosman. Will you please kindly place your names on the roll, the legal counsel appearing in the next matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: For the record, Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to proceed with your matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I'm ready to proceed and in this matter I don't have any supplementary affidavit to assist us in leading the applicant. I'll lead the applicant orally, Mr Chairperson. May the applicant be sworn in Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the applicant speaks Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Xhosa?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata will you please administer the oath?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.

GEOFFREY M MFAZO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, can you for the record put your names - tell the Committee your names, your full names?

MR MFAZO: My name is Jeffrey Mfazo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, is it correct that you are staying at 281 Eloff Street in New Brighton, Noupoort?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that you were born on the 21st October 1969?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were a supporter of PAC during the time of 1993?

MR MFAZO: Yes I was a PAC supporter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In particular around the 4th April 1993?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you start to be a supporter of PAC?

MR MFAZO: I started in 1989.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee does the PAC at that particular moment during the time of April 1993 had any members or branch in Noupoort, in your township?

MR MFAZO: Yes there were members but there was no branch.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, do you still remember the events of the 4th April 1993 which led to you being convicted?

MR MFAZO: Yes I can still remember.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee where were you on the day in question and what happened?

MR MFAZO: On the 4th April I was in the squatter camp at KwaZulu at a shebeen in ...[indistinct]. We were drinking there. There was a person by the name of Thozamele Induna with his friends who were there drinking with us. As they were sitting there discussing about the organisation, but they later said that in my presence they cannot discuss anything about that organisation but I told ...

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt Mr Mfazo? As you are giving your evidence it is being translated so I would appreciate if you could go a little slower to enable the translators to be able to pick up each and every word you are saying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was being said by organisations at the shebeen?

MR MFAZO: We were sitting there discussing about the issues concerning the organisation and they later decided to keep quiet because I was there. I don't know what is it they were discussing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What organisation were they talking about that you were not ...[inaudible]

MR MFAZO: They were ANC members.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed then, what happened after they said that they must stop talking because somebody was not a member of the ANC?

MR MFAZO: I continued drinking and Thozamele Induna was arguing with me and we had a quarrel thereafter and I told him thereafter that I was not there for the organisation issues, I was there to drink and I kept on drinking. After that I left for the toilet. I realised that they were following me, it was himself and Sipho. I heard a knock at the toilet and he was already inside and I told him that I was inside the toilet. When I went out of the toilet they were in front of the door. I heard stabbing, stabbing me at the back, that was Sipho stabbing me. When I realised that I took my knife and Thozamele also had his knife. I stabbed him and he turned and he ran away and I also ran away. I saw a police casspir outside. I was lying in the graveyard because the people were pursuing me. When the police van left I went home and when I arrived home I was told that the police were there looking for me at my home. I went straight to the police station. When I arrived there I introduced myself there and I told them I heard the police were looking for me. They phoned the other police station and the police van came and they took me into the van. I was taken to that police station, the other police station. I saw an I.D. document there in that police station, it was on the chair and there was a trouser, a pair of trousers and a shirt soaked in blood and I was told that the person had died. I got a shock because it was not my intention to kill him. I was then arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay Mr Mfazo, let's go back then to the - where this incident took place. After you went to the toilet and there was a knock and you came out of the toilet and you met the two, the deceased and this Sipho, was there anything said to you there or they just stabbed you?

MR MFAZO: Nothing was said, they just stabbed me and I also took out my knife. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know the reason for them stabbing you?

MR MFAZO: The reason was that we had a quarrel before previously. I think there was a grudge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you tell the Committee what was this grudge about or the quarrel, what was it about?

MR MFAZO: We had a quarrel over a girl.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And at the time when they came to you, who actually quarrelled with you over a girl?

MR MFAZO: That was previously, it was not on this particular day, this quarrel over a girl took place at some time before the real incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm saying is that who quarrelled with you over a girl amongst the two gentlemen, Sipho and the deceased?

MR MFAZO: It was Thozamele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now my question again is that since you have already told the Committee that they did not say anything, they just stabbed you. You told the Committee that you did not know the reason except that you had a quarrel with them. So every time when they stabbed you, you thought that is because of that quarrel over a girl?

MR MFAZO: The quarrel that we had, it was because of the fact that I was a PAC member and they were ANC members. They wanted to recruit me and I told them that I'll never ever - I'll never join ANC, that was my own choice to be a PAC member, that was my own choice.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mfazo, during your trial you told the court that the knife you stabbed the deceased with, you took it from him and today you are telling the Committee that you drew your own knife. Can you tell the Committee what is the difference today?

MR MFAZO: The reason for that I wanted to be free, I was trying to escape conviction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that during the trial Sipho told the court that you are the person who called the deceased, you were outside and you called the deceased and he did not know what you were talking about there and he saw you chasing the deceased. What do you say to that?

MR MFAZO: That is not true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct to say that you were eventually convicted of this offence in 1995, on the 26th May 1995?

MR MFAZO: Yes I was convicted for this case while I was still on trial. They went to my house, they broke into my house and they burnt down my house. The ANC members were looking for petrol, they wanted to burn down my house, my home. After the trial I realised that in the township they don't need me. I went to Cape Town and I told the magistrate that I did not have a place to stay and I was leaving for Cape Town. They told me that they would contact me on certain dates so I had to stay in contact. I did that but just before the last date of the trial I didn't have money so I couldn't go to court. I was later arrested and the case was started all over again, I was sent to Noupoort in 1994. I was later released after the trial in November 1994, I was released and I was told to attend the court regularly whenever necessary until I was sentenced. I did that until I was sentenced.

MR MBANDAZAYO: My question was that you were convicted in May 1995 to five years imprisonment and you have just been released from jail, is that correct?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you, Mr Mfazo, is there anything you want to add to what you have already told the Committee about this incident?

MR MFAZO: There is nothing else.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairperson at this stage.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Do you have any questions Ms Ramula, to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mfazo, you stated in your evidence in chief that you said certain things at the trial merely because you didn't want to be convicted. What else did you tell the court that was a lie or was what you had alluded to in your evidence in chief the only thing you lied about regarding the knife? 

MR MFAZO: What I said and that was not true it's the fact that the knife belonged to the deceased. 

MS PATEL: And whatever else you told the court was correct as it had happened?

MR MFAZO: The only truth is the one that I'm saying here today in front of you.

MS PATEL: Right, let me ask you a few more specific questions then. At the court you told the magistrate there that you and the deceased were at a tavern together and that he was dancing there in front of you and that he kept knocking or that he knocked the table at which you were sitting at and that is how the argument started. Is that a lie or is that the truth?

MR MFAZO: That was not true. 

MS PATEL: It's on page 48 of the bundle, it's part of the judgement, it's the second paragraph. So why did you make that up?

MR MFAZO: The reason for me to say that, I didn't want to incriminate myself there.

MS PATEL: Incriminate yourself how, how were you going to incriminate yourself by saying this?

MR MFAZO: I thought that I would escape conviction.

MS PATEL: What is it that you had done wrong that you thought you would be convicted of?

MR MFAZO: It's the fact that I stabbed Thozamele.

MS PATEL: But you've just told us that you stabbed him because they had attacked you and that there were two of them and you had to defend yourself, that's not grounds for a conviction? You were the victim here, not so?

MR MFAZO: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: So then why the need for the lies?

MR MFAZO: The reason for me to lie, I was very shocked on hearing that Thozamele had passed away, I was still a little bit dizzy.

MS PATEL: And that's why you lied at the court?

MR MFAZO: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: What was the time difference between this incident and when you had actually gone to court for the trial? How long after did you go to court with this because you had told us already that you'd ran away from home and you'd gone to Cape Town and eventually after a long time this matter came to court. So were you still dizzy after all this time?

MR MFAZO: It was after a long time, it was after a long time after the incident. It was a long time after the incident.

MS PATEL: Okay and you're sure you only stabbed him once?

MR MFAZO: Yes I stabbed him only once and he turned away and I also ran away.

MS PATEL: And you say that you were stabbed as well?

MR MFAZO: Yes I was stabbed as well.

MS PATEL: Where were you stabbed?

MR MFAZO: At my back.

MS PATEL: Did you receive treatment for this?

MR MFAZO: It was just a minor wound.

MS PATEL: Did you inform the police about this?

MR MFAZO: Yes I told the police and I showed them and they told me that it was just a minor wound, there was no need for me to go to the doctor.

MS PATEL: Why did you not say this at the trial, why did you not tell the magistrate that you were stabbed as well?

MR MFAZO: I told that story before the magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he did that, the only thing that he did not disclose to the magistrate was that he had been stabbed by Sipho.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, I withdraw that question.

&#9;Did the deceased hit you at all?

MR MFAZO: No.

MS PATEL: At the trial it was said that there was an altercation between you and the deceased before he was in fact stabbed. Do you deny that at all?

MR MFAZO: Please repeat your question?

MS PATEL: At the trial it was said that there was a fight before the stabbing between yourself and the deceased. Did that ever happen?

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel, may I just ask you for clarification, to which lines you are referring because I seem to remember that it was said that it was an argument but not a fight. Could we just get clarity on that?

MS PATEL: Page 50 of the judgement, the second paragraph, the magistrate had said that:

&#9;"He was the person who started the fight. He is the &#9;person who hit the deceased first with the fist."

and at the end of the paragraph it says:

&#9;"he was the assailant on that particular evening."

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Do you deny that?

MR MFAZO: There was no fight, when I went out of the toilet I was stabbed and I had to take my knife and stab also but there was no fight.

MS PATEL: Regarding the conflict, you'd mentioned that there was conflict between the ANC and the PAC in the area. Can you elaborate on that? What was the nature of this conflict?

MR MFAZO: It was not a conflict but the ANC members were against me because I was a PAC member, it was not a conflict that was caused by the organisation, the whole organisation, but it was only individuals from the ANC organisation who were fighting me because I was a member of the PAC.

MS PATEL: And what was this about specifically?

MR MFAZO: I said before that there was a grudge that was held against me. I don't think the reasons were based on the fact that they wanted me to join the organisation, I think there was a grudge between myself and them.

CHAIRPERSON: Which them are you referring to Mr Mfazo, can you name the persons that you had grudge with?

MR MFAZO: It was Thozamene Induna and Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say that the members of the ANC were against you because you were not a PAC member, you are in fact referring to two persons and that's the deceased and his friend Sipho?

MR MFAZO: Yes because they indicated that the identified me because they even went to my house and they broke into my house and burnt it down.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that? Was that before the stabbing took place?

MR MFAZO: It was when I was still in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but the question which was posed to you by Ms Patel was that what was the reason for them having a grudge against you. Now she is referring to obviously a period before the stabbing took place.

MR MFAZO: Just before the stabbing we had a argument there and then I told them that I was not there at the shebeen to discuss about the organisation's issues. I was only there to drink and thereafter they decided to follow me when I went to the toilet and I didn't know what their intention was.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.

MS PATEL: The grudge that you refer to, it was really about this woman wasn't it? That was the real reason, it was about this woman, it wasn't about the discussion that you would have had or that you allegedly had whilst you were still in the shebeen?

MR MFAZO: Yes the grudge was about the girl that we had an argument or quarrel about.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel. Mr Motata, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mfazo?

MR MOTATA: I've got none Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I've no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you propose to call any further witnesses in support of your client's application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson, that's the only witness I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you closing your application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Patel do you propose to lead any evidence?

MS PATEL: No I don't, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case, are you in a position to give us your oral address Mr Mbandazayo, which we hope will be short?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I ready to proceed with the argument Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Chairperson, the issues that are clear in this matter is that this took place in a shebeen and it's clear that people were drunk and of course it's known those times many issues do come up in a shebeen like political arguments on organisations. It's clear that even this one was on that context but surpassing, I must consider it was the first time that this one of woman come up, I consider that one, I was not aware of that one. I thought that it was political all the way, it was revolving around the organisation. I did not know that there's another issue, it came up during - now my leading of evidence that there was something else but if we would take the evidence of the applicant, though he is not saying in so many words as eloquent as one would put it, the way I understood his evidence is that he thought that what they did to him was because they had a grudge which was as a result of a quarrel over a girl and this grudge was couched in political terms, in terms of ANC/PAC politics. That's how I understood it that though this quarrel was about - started there as ANC/PAC organisation, but he believed that it was because of the grudge over a girl though it was couched in ANC/PAC. Now my argument would be that if then that at that time he believed that it was ANC/PAC thing, then he had a right to act in the way he did but now one would ask the question why wouldn't then if you knew that this was nothing to do with the ANC/PAC but it's over a girl now you apply for amnesty when you know that it has nothing to do with politics? Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I wouldn't be able to answer that one, I'll leave it as it is but what I want the Committee to take into account is that the applicant has been honest enough to come even to tell the Committee about that, we didn't know that there was a question of a girl and it shows that he is an honest person, he's telling the Committee what - he has nothing to lose, he has been released, he has served his term, he is out of jail. He has nothing to lose, he is not going to go back to jail, he has no reason to come and lie to this Committee and as such I would like the Committee to take those into account when they are deciding whether this matter deserves that the applicant should be granted amnesty. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you therefore conceding that from the evidence that has been given to this Committee, no case has been made for the granting of amnesty as the applicant has himself stated quite unequivocally that the motive for the killing was because of the grudge he had over a girl with the deceased? That being so, can that be any reason to still consider this application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I don't know whether maybe I didn't get it correctly in the meantime, I thought that, ...[indistinct] that he believed that they have a grudge over him, not necessarily that he himself had a grudge against them.

CHAIRPERSON: My notes indicate that on the question posed by Ms Patel towards the later part of her cross-examination, the applicant considered that there was a grudge that he and Thozamele had over the girl, that was the evidence and those are the way my notes are reading.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if that's the case I would concede if that's the position Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, though myself I interpreted, I thought that he's saying that Thozamele had a grudge against him over the quarrel which ensued over a girl, that Thozamele had a grudge against him, not necessarily that he himself had a grudge against Thozamele.

CHAIRPERSON: If I were to take your line of argument, if he did not himself had a grudge against Thozamele, has he made any - has he advanced any reason that would give him a political motive to have acted the way he did?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I must concede that it's a very thin line, one would look for it in order to come to that conclusion. You'd have to stretch your mind to come to that conclusion when the only conclusion will be that because of the quarrel that they were discussing political issues and that it was said that we can't discuss this in the presence of a member of another political organisation and after that he left and thereafter they followed him and they stabbed him. One would only assume that it was because of that otherwise Chairperson, there's nothing which one would say is direct that this was indeed a political motivated factor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact Mr Mbandazayo, during your leading of your client in his evidence in chief you asked him what was the reason for the stabbing and I have my notes are saying:

&#9;"The reason I stabbed him was because we previously had a quarrel over a girl and we had a grudge"

and I think that was his evidence in chief pursuant to your own line of questioning. Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I don't think there's any need to lead argument in this matter except to urge that the application be denied for not having complied with the requirements of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, Mr Mbandazayo, this Committee will be in a position to pronounce it's decision tomorrow morning. I don't think there's a need for Mr Mfazo to be present when we do so because you will be here to represent his interest.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Patel are we ready to proceed with the next application?

MS PATEL: I'm in the hands of Mr Mbandazayo in that regard Honourable Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I would like to know which one we are - there's Dingane, Wanga and Mpotso, Molefe, I would like - which one are we going to be the second, I'm not sure which one is going to follow Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we were advised earlier on by Ms Patel that you would be consulting with Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga with a view of leading both applicants once we are through with the first matter that we would have decided to embark upon so we are ready to hear Mr Dingane and Mr Wanga if you are ready to proceed and lead their evidence but if you want to start with Mr Mpotso and Mr Molefe would also be able to hear their evidence. We are completely at your hands.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason why I'm asking is that Wanga arrived, Dingane arrived a little bit later now when the applicant Mfazo was arriving so that we were going to start because they brought a wrong Dingane initially so I was not - could not be in a position to consult with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you in that case properly request us to give an indulgence of a few minutes to complete your application in respect of the Dingane and Wanga matter and then advise us as soon as you are through so that we can foresee it in respect of that matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, I'll be in a position to proceed within twenty minutes with that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll grant you that indulgence, we are aware that you've been given great difficulties by our office and these delays are not of your own making but of our own making and we wish to apologise and hope that things will be sorted out so that in future we'll maybe able to start timeously.

Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for about twenty minutes when we'll be starting with the next matter, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;&#9;18TH JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;&#9;B S WANGA

APPLICATION NO: AM 0981/96

MATTER:&#9;&#9;ASSAULT AND ROBBERIES AT &#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;KIRKWOOD AND GREYTOWN

DAY:&#9;&#9;&#9;1

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are we in a position to proceed now with your second application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I'm ready to proceed but I would like to take direction from the Committee which matter will we start with, is the one Kirkwood or Grahamstown?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you are leading evidence on behalf of - you are assisting your clients to lead evidence to assist the Committee, so I think you will have to give us an indication of how you want to conduct the proceedings. We are completely at your hands.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason I'm asking is that there's the other one, they are involved, there are two, another one. The other one is only one, so should we take them all simultaneously, the two matters?

CHAIRPERSON: I think for purposes of convenience, you may start with a matter where the applicant is I think Mr Wanga, he is involved in a matter that does not involve Mr Dingane, then we proceed with the one in which they are jointly involved which is the Kirkwood matter if I remember well?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. May Mr Wanga be sworn in, Mr Chairperson?

B S WANGA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, is it correct that you originally stay at 138 Stocker Street, New Brighton?

MR WANGA: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it also correct that you were born on the 9th March 1967?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I also correct that you are currently in prison, serving 24 years imprisonment?

MR WANGA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, before we proceed any further regarding the matter that happened in Grahamstown in 1985, can you for the benefit of this Committee, tell the Committee which organisation do you belong?

MR WANGA: PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: It was early '80's, I think 1982.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: The person who recruited me passed away, Sipho Mkumkulu. He is the one who recruited me to join the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The reason I'm asking you is that PAC at the time was banned, that's why I'm asking how did you join PAC?

MR WANGA: There were organisations that were under PAC like AZANU.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat that answer?

MR WANGA: What I'm saying is that I joined PAC because there were organisations which were working with the PAC like AZANU, they were preaching the same politics about the land.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, Mr Wanga can you tell the Committee is there anything you know what - what connection do you have with the AZAPO or BCMA?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, that the reason that there was AZAPO, they were preaching the matter of the land and at the time the PAC was banned inside the country. They were preaching the same matter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you trying to tell this Committee that at the time of this incident in 1985 you were a member of AZAPO?

MR WANGA: I was not a member of AZAPO, I belonged to the PAC, we were doing PAC's job although the PAC was not inside the country.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, can you finally clarify this point, what connection did you have with AZAPO?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, what AZAPO was saying or what AZAPO was all about, was the struggle of the people's land and the Pan Africanist Congress was also concerned about that matter, that is why I'm saying that when I was clarifying this, I used AZAPO names in my form because the PAC have distanced itself about the TRC matters.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Mbandazayo?

&#9;Mr Wanga, I still do not understand your responses to questions posed by your legal representatives. You have completed three different application forms. In respect of the two applications you completed, you stated that you were a member of BCM. What does that stand for?

MR WANGA: BCM? Black Convention Movement.

CHAIRPERSON: And how is it related to AZAPO?

MR WANGA: What BCM was doing was the same as what AZAPO was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the third application you indicated that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania. Why did you have to state two different liberation movements and that is what your legal representative is trying to get from you, he needs you to explain that to the Committee because it is important for us to know why you sought to put two different liberation movements in respect of an application which deals with the same act which you purported to act on behalf of a particular organisation?

MR WANGA: I made a mistake, I knew that I made an application under the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying you made a mistake, what was the nature of the mistake you made when you put in two different liberation movements. We need to get that clarification, it is very important to us.

MR WANGA: I've already stated that the reason that I made the application and I wrote AZAPO, AZAPO was working together with the PAC because at the time that I was making the application the PAC had distanced itself from the TRC. Since the AZAPO was preaching or was talking the same language as the PAC so I decided to write the AZAPO name although I knew that I was a member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say there the reason why you inserted the name of AZAPO in your application because the PAC was distancing itself from the TRC, what do you mean? Are you saying the PAC had advised it's members not to apply to the TRC, is that what you're saying and that's why you inserted AZAPO instead of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this information that the PAC had advised it's members not to apply to the TRC?

MR WANGA: When all this was happening we were in prison. No we had no connections with anybody when this process started. 

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know that the PAC had discouraged it's members from applying for amnesty to the TRC?

MR WANGA: Everything that was happening here in South Africa at that time, it was publicised. As a result if you were a person who was concerned or interested in such matters you would know what was required and what was not required.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that the first application you made you didn't even put the name of AZAPO, you put BCM?

MR WANGA: Yes I know.

CHAIRPERSON: And the same thing happened a few months thereafter when you made your second application. Did someone tell you that the PAC had relented in it's stance against advising people to approach the TRC for applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: As I've already said, the PAC said this in public that it was against the TRC. I've already indicated that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then if you knew that the PAC was opposed to people applying for amnesty to the TRC, why did you then on the 20th September 1997 submit an application in which you stated that you were a member of the Pan Africanist Congress?

MR WANGA: The PAC at that time had already agreed for us to make application forms because the Operational Director had confirmed or stated that the members were allowed to make applications to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you approached personally and given that directive by an official of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Leaders of PAC did visit us in St Albans but I don't remember when but they went there a lot of times.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they personally visit and advise you against applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: Can you please repeat your question ma'am?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you personally visited by any member of the PAC and advised against applying for amnesty?

MR WANGA: Nobody came to me but the leaders of the PAC that came, they told us the reasons why they were now saying that we should make the applications to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'm indebted to the Members of the Committee.

&#9;Mr Wanga, can you still remember the events of 1985 in Grahamstown, what took place in 1985 in Grahamstown?

&#9;Sorry Chairperson, in fact I was - I started with the wrong one, I started with the Kirkwood, I'm supposed to proceed with Kirkwood not Grahamstown so I was told that I started with Grahamstown. 

&#9;Mr Wanga, can you tell the Committee about the events in Kirkwood on the 28th November 1988. Do you still remember that date?

MR WANGA: Yes I still remember that date.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who gave you an instruction to go to Mr Claassens farm, if I'm not mistaken, in Kirkwood?

MR WANGA: Our leader gave us the instruction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, we want the name of the person who gave you an order to go to that farm and the actual instruction he gave you and tell the Committee how many were you when you went there?

MR WANGA: It was myself together with a gentleman next to me and two others but one has passed away. The person who gave us that instruction was Jabu Mdunge who was our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have not yet told the Committee about the names, the names of the person involved, the person who died and the other one. You have not yet told the Committee. 

MR WANGA: The gentleman next to me was Aaron Dingane and it was myself and Zalisele Memani and Dumele Mashuma and the deceased is Vuyisile Andries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where are the other people who were involved in this matter with the exception of the one who passed away?

MR WANGA: They were released.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what was the nature of the instruction given by Mdunge, who was actually given the instructions? Gave the instruction to all of you as a group or he gave the instruction to an individual, to yourself and where did he give you this instruction?

MR WANGA: At the time we made a decision. There was a house in Vierplaas that we used to use. We would go and meet in that house when we were planning operations in the farms. He then met with Aaron Dingane and the rest of us but it took us some days before we met him. We used to go there three times to meet that place, three times to make sure that we were going to do as he gave us the instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't get that one. Did you used to meet three times a day or three times a week?

MR WANGA: At various times, different times, we had times that we used to meet because we're not all staying in Vierplaas but we used to meet in Vierplaas when we had meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether it was properly translated, just a few seconds ago you had said something about having met at this particular house about three times, now I didn't get whether it was three times a day or three times a week?

MR WANGA: I said we met three times before we went to this operation. I didn't say three times a day, I just said three times.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga can you tell the Committee about Mdunge, Jabu Mdunge, where was he from and who was he?

MR WANGA: We knew Jabu Mdunge as our commander. He was the one who was giving us instructions concerning the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know where he was coming from?

MR WANGA: Not exactly but we knew that he was a South African, he was also a member of the PAC but I don't know whether he was from Durban or Johannesburg.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now where is Jabu Mdunge now?

MR WANGA: I think he died. When we were arrested he was still alive but we heard that he died in 1990 or 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now tell the Committee who gave Jabu Mdunge information about the farm as you indicated he was not around from here so definitely he did not know anything about the farm in Kirkwood?

MR WANGA: The deceased Vuyisile Andries, he was staying in Kirkwood and I also had friends in Kirkwood. We used to use Vuyisile to get information concerning the farms and we would visit Vuyisile Andries in order to inspect or to look at that place and then we'd go back to Jabu and give him a report. They would then take steps and visit Vuyisile Andries to see for himself. He would then agree or give us instructions to continue with the operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what was the nature of the instruction given to you by Jabu Mdunge, what did he tell you to do in the farm, to go and do?

MR WANGA: As we all knew here in South Africa what kind of life the Black people were living here in South Africa, we didn't have weapons to fight against whites, our aim was to wage Black people's struggle.

ADV MOTATA: If I may Mr Mbandazayo, but I thought your legal representative said what did Jabu Mdunge tell you to do and you are answering that we all know in South Africa Blacks didn't have arms but you are not answering what your legal representative wants from you?

MR WANGA: The instructions he gave us was to take weapons from the Whites because the White people were the military zone. It is where we can get weapons by going to the Whites and taking the weapons from them. We would be able to defend or protect ourselves in the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are telling the Committee is that the instruction was that "go to the farm and come back with arms" - those were the instructions from Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Also the money, if we could find money we used to take it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, in your application form you were asked who gave you orders for this particular offence, you said orders from the Azanian People's Liberation Army?

CHAIRPERSON: On which page are you referring to Mr Mbandazayo because we have a series of Mr Wanga's applications before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Chairperson, I was looking at Dingane's one, it was not Mr Wanga's. It seems as if it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think if I may assist on page 47 he does refer to instructions having been given by Comrade Jabu Mdunge of Tembisa though I would want to know why he has not made such reference in respect of the two previous applications he had made?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, in fact it's what - if he can answer your question I would allow him to answer the Chairperson's question because that's what I was driving at, I was looking for this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, you are aware that you have made three applications? Do you have copies thereof in front of you? Now in the application which you made, the first application which is dated the 29th May 1996, you did not indicate that you committed this offence as a result of an order which emanated from Comrade Jabu Mdunge nor did you state that in your second application which is on page 36. You however when you applied for the third time which application appears on page 43, only then indicated that the order came from Comrade Mdunge. We would want to know why you omitted to say that in your two other applications?

&#9;Are you now in a position to respond? You'd better respond through your mike so that your response can be repeated by our translator so that we can also get the benefit of your response?

MR WANGA: I am surprised to see this here now, I thought that I had written it here as it is in page 36. I'm not aware that I didn't feel or write in here.

CHAIRPERSON: Who completed the application, your first application? Whose handwriting is that, the one which is on page 33? Just check the handwriting.

MR WANGA: This is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you be surprised that you did not include information when you yourself completed the application?

MR WANGA: We would get the application forms from the prison warders so I didn't realise that there are things that I didn't write in here. That is why I explained it in page 36. I didn't know that in the other forms there's something that I didn't clarify or write.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have to complete three different applications, was it because of the fact that you became aware that you omitted certain information?

MR WANGA: No I didn't notice that I made such a mistake, that I didn't complete the whole form, I was not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you aware that you in fact completed the whole form, you wrote "N/A" what did you mean when you said "N/A". On page 35 you were specifically asked whether the acts in respect of which amnesty is being sought was committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement and your response is "N/A" - not applicable. You responded to a question and your response indicated that it was not applicable. What do you mean when you say you did not know what you were doing?

MR WANGA: I cannot explain it in any other way except the way that I've already explained. I didn't realise that I didn't fully complete the application form.

CHAIRPERSON: And neither did you fully realise that you had not done so on the 13th December 1996 when you completed your second application?

MR WANGA: There were applications that we were assisted by the police in prison and there were applications that we filled after we have consulted with our leaders so I'm not sure about all this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

&#9;Now Mr Wanga, just on that point of going to this farm, Mr Claassens farm, who was the commander of your unit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, would you please just concentrate on the questions being posed by your legal representative without seeking assistance from Mr Dingane?

MR WANGA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was the commander of your unit when you went to Mr Claassen's farm?

MR WANGA: It was Aaron Dingane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many were you?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Aaron, Memani, Mashula and Andries.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now were you always together in that unit?

MR WANGA: Yes, we were always together as a unit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they also members of the PAC?

MR WANGA: We're not able to tell them exactly what to do but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Wanga, listen to the question. Were the other people who were in the same unit as yourself also members of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes they were members of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. And also that they were also members of your unit?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And they were also aware of the activities of the unit?

MR WANGA: Yes, they were aware.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now when Jabu Mdunge gave you an order to go to this farm, what did he say that - did he say that you were doing this as members of the PAC or you were doing it as supporters of PAC or members of APLA?

MR WANGA: All such operations we were doing under APLA.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, I'll take it then that if you were doing it as members of APLA your group was composed of a unit and it's commander, as you indicated, was Aaron Dingane, what were the positions of the other members of the unit, within the unit itself?

MR WANGA: As I've already said he was the unit commander. There was a logistic officer and there were additional forces. The people were guiding us in the job and the people who were securing those who were doing the job because we wouldn't go there and do the same job, we wouldn't all take weapons. There were people who were supposed to secure us to look out for the enemy.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga ...[intervention]

ADV MOTATA: May I Mr Mbandazayo just come in here?

&#9;Mr Wanga, just assist us, we know for instance that there is Aaron Dingane who was the commander of your unit, your leader of your unit. Tell us in respective of Mashula, Memani, what positions they had or were they just foot soldiers. Don't tell use about vague things that there would be people who'd do x,y,z. We want to know about members of your unit.

MR WANGA: Mashula was a soldier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, who was the - let me lead you then tell me, who was the political commissar of the unit?

MR WANGA: When we were going to the operation?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, you've already told the Committee you were always together as a unit, you gave the Committee the names of the unit, now I'm asking then who was the political commissar of that unit? You've already told the Committee that there was a commander Aaron Dingane, now who was the political commissar?

MR WANGA: Memani was assisting Aaron.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, just answer a simple question. Who was the political commissar in your unit? We don't want to know who was assisting Mr Dingane. At least your counsel has not put that question to you.

MR WANGA: It was Memani, a political commissar.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Chairperson. Who was the logistics officer of your unit?

MR WANGA: It was Mashula.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, at the time of this incident I take it that since you were with this unit you were aware of what was happening politically at the time and you are aware of the leaders of the PAC at the time you were involved in this. Will you be able to throw some light that since you were a unit which belonged to APLA did you know who was a commander of APLA at the time?

MR WANGA: It was Sabelo Palma and the commissar of APLA was Romero Daniels.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, who was the Director of Operations then?

MR WANGA: It was Letslape Mphalele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And do you know who was the President of the PAC?

MR WANGA: At the time it was Clarence Makwetu and his deputy was Dugang Musaneki.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, start putting words in your mouth, we are talking about the dates when this incident happened which was 1988. Are you sure about what you are telling the Committee?

MR WANGA: Yes I am sure.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Mbandazo? If I may? When was your unit established?

MR WANGA: Late in 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: And when it was established in late 1987, did it comprise the same members that you have just articulated in your evidence?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Wanga, let's go now to the farm. What happened when you arrived at the farm, how did you go to the farm, what mode of transport did you use? How were you armed?

MR WANGA: There was a car that we used, a Corolla, a white Corolla. We arrived there on a Saturday, Saturday morning and we knew that we were going to do an operation in the afternoon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, how were you armed when you went there? How was yourself armed, Aaron, all the members of the unit, what weapons did you have with you, let me put it that way?

MR WANGA: We were armed with a shotgun, also had a pistol, Aaron was carrying a gun, he was leading us as a commander. We went in there, the three of us went in and then the others followed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, tell the Committee what happened?

MR WANGA: When we got there Mr John was inside the shop together with a friend, I don't know whether it was a person who was assisting him but when we used to go to that place, that person would be there with Mr John, but before we went inside to do the job or the operation a car, a Mazda, went out of that place. The driver was a woman, we thought that it was his wife. We then went inside the shop. We took him out of the shop and we took him inside the house. We wanted weapons and we took the weapons and also took some money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee how did you take the weapons, did you point firearms, did you assault the people at the farm? What actually took place? All of us we were not there, you were the people who were there, we want to know - everybody wants the picture of what actually took place there.

MR WANGA: Mr Claassens was pointed with a gun together with his friend. His friend tried - he gave us some trouble. We found out that he was trained in karate. We then took him to the other side of the store and we put bags and some heavy stuff in that storeroom. We were then busy with Mr Claassens. We left two of us inside the shop. We took the owner of the house, he was pleading with us not to kill him. We told him that we were not going to kill him but if he was operating with what we were looking for things would be easy for him but if he was giving us problems we were going to take a decision in that place and at that time. Mr Claassens was willing to take us inside the house. We went inside the house and he told us about the weapons that he had, we found a 9 mm. He then led us to other rooms and then we found money. We went back to the shop after we were finished the job inside the house. The shop was in the same premises but not - it was next to the house. After that we had a problem with transport as I've already indicated that we saw a car going out of that house when we were going in because the car took us there, just dropped us there and then it left.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then how did you leave the place and what did you manage to get in the place, how many firearms, how much money did you get and what else did you get?

MR WANGA: We took a box with money and it was locked at the time and we didn't have a key for that box. We also found a shotgun. We searched in that house thoroughly but we couldn't find any other weapons. He then opened a safe and we found out that he did not have any other weapons. We then decided to take the box of money and the shotgun with us. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you leave the place, what mode of transport did you use?

MR WANGA: We didn't use a car to leave that place. We took a road that led us to a place where we can get a public transport because we couldn't use the same car that took us there, that was our way of operating.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you reach your destination?

MR WANGA: Which destination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the whole incident where were you going to go to?

MR WANGA: We went to Kirkwood and then from the township we'd use a public transport to come back to Port Elizabeth in Vierplaas where we would give a report to the unit commander and hand over what we found there. We would give all those to Jabu, our commander.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what happened there after the incident. Did you manage to go to Jabu Mdunge and hand over everything?

MR WANGA: Yes it is obvious because everything that we would do, we would go back to him and report even if we found weapons we would take them back to Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga, are you saying that whenever you conducted an operation of this nature you would go back to Mr Mdunge to hand over whatever you would have taken in the process of your operation? Is that that should mean when you say it's obvious?

MR WANGA: Yes it is obvious because what we were doing we were doing according to his instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now I take it that when you arrived at his place you counted the money. How much was it?

MR WANGA: I don't remember the exact amount but I think it was between R7000 or R12000 but I don't remember clearly because this happened a long time ago.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did Jabu Mdunge give you any share in the amount?

MR WANGA: No, we knew that we were not the only ones who were doing such operations. We knew that in other places there are cadres who needed support and they wanted weapons and money and some of those cadres would sleep in places of operations so they would need money, food, but we didn't get anything for our own needs.

ADV MOTATA: Let's interrupt you. The question is simple and short. Did Mr Mdunge give you something out of the amount between R7000 and R12000, did he give you something out of that? That's what the question wants.

MR WANGA: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

&#9;Now Mr Wanga, I'm looking at your file and that before this incident it seems that you were not a stranger with being in conflict with the law and you have been out - in and out of prison, is that correct?

MR WANGA: I was still at school at that time when I was arrested concerning dagga, I was not in and out of prison. That was the first time that I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I hate doing this but for the sake of completing what you've already obtained from your client. Mr Wanga you say that the amount of between R7000 to R12000 was given to Mr Mdunge. Did you give that money to Mr Mdunge as a unit that had conducted that operation? Were you all there when you presented the money to Mr Mdunge after the operation?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that Mr Mdunge did not give you anything from the proceeds, nothing was given to your unit? That's correct?

MR WANGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you know what happened to the money? Do you know how Mr Mdunge used the money?

MR WANGA: No we don't know how he used the money but as I've already said we knew that there were other units in other places that needed support, that needed food, so we were not aware or we didn't know whether he did or not but we knew there were people who were needing support.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay. Thank you. I just wanted to get clarity on that issue Mr Mbandazayo. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'm just finishing. &#9;How long were you arrested after this incident?

MR WANGA: This happened in 1988 on the 28th November. I think on the 9th January we were then arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is January 1989?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And were you granted bail?

MR WANGA: No I was not granted bail.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Wanga, can you then tell the Committee the reason why should they grant you amnesty for this offence?

MR WANGA: It is because everything we did we did it because of the political situation here in South Africa under the oppression of the White people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that's all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mbandazayo.

&#9; Ms Patel, I see that it's almost time for us to break for lunch. Shall we take about forty minutes lunch and probably come back at - is that okay if we take thirty minutes lunch, maybe we should make enquiries from the people who are doing a very difficult job of being our translators, that will be in order for us to take thirty minutes?

INTERPRETER: Yes it's okay.

MS PATEL: Thank you for your indulgence. Well shall we take a thirty minutes adjournment for lunch?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, is Mr Wanga still proceeding with his testimony?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thanks Chairperson, we have concluded our evidence in chief on the incident of Kirkwood.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wanga you are still under oath, may I remind you? Ms Patel, do you have any questions to pose to Mr Wanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Wanga, was Mr Dingane the commander of your unit from it's inception in 1987?

B S WANGA: (s.u.o.) 

MS PATEL: And was he involved in all your operations that you undertook during the time from '87 to '88/'89?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay and would all those operations have been authorised by Jabu Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Would Mr Mdunge personally have authorised those operations in your presence?

MR WANGA: Yes.

MS PATEL: Well I find that rather curious because Mr Dingane at nowhere in his application does he mention that he was authorised by Mr Mdunge. Can you offer an explanation for this?

MR WANGA: All I know that we got the authority from Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Okay and you've also stated that Mr Dingane was present when you went and reported to Mr Mdunge after the completion of this operation and where the money was handed over to Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: Yes he was present.

MS PATEL: Besides you not receiving any money from that operation, did anybody else in your unit receive money from that operation?

MR WANGA: I do not know as to whether there was someone who got money out of that operation.

MS PATEL: But you operated together as the unit, how would you not know? You said that you were all together when you reported to Mr Mdunge and that the money was handed to him?

MR WANGA: I don't know if anybody was given money but all I know is that we would hand over whatever we had, money or something else, we would hand it over to Mr Mdunge, then there's nothing else I can say.

MS PATEL: Ms Patel I thought the applicant was quite explicit in his evidence in chief when I questioned him on this that none of them received anything from Mr Mdunge as a result of the operation conducted at Kirkwood?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. 

&#9;Then if I can refer you to page 5 of the bundle, Mr Dingane's application, at 10 (d). He explains that:

&#9;"With the R7000's that was robbed we were able to fund our unit"

Now why does Mr Dingane say that the money was used to fund the unit and you say that the money was handed over to Mr Mdunge?

MR WANGA: All I knew was that the money was to be handed over to Jabu Mdunge, I don't know what he did with the money afterwards.

MS PATEL: Are you saying there's a possibility that it would have been handed over to Mr Dingane the commander of your unit without your knowing?

MR WANGA: I don't have knowledge of anyone who was given the money. All I know is that whenever we have - after completing each and every operation we would hand over the money to Jabu Mdune.

MS PATEL: Okay. You were convicted for various other offences, not so?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: In fact, according to the information at our disposal, the very day before this incident had - this operation was taken out, you were convicted for also housebreaking, theft matter also at a farm in the Kirkwood area in which a television and clothing was stolen, is that correct? You were sentenced to five years for that matter.

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Was this also carried out with Mr Dingane's approval?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and how many of you were involved in that matter?

MR WANGA: Three of us.

MS PATEL: And who were these three persons?

MR WANGA: It was myself, Dingane and Vuyisile Andries.

MS PATEL: Okay and what did you do with the T.V. and clothing?

MR WANGA: Everything of value would be handed over to the unit commander, Jabu Mdunge.

MS PATEL: Okay, but you haven't applied for amnesty for this incident?

MR WANGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Well why not? The question is very simple, sir. Why not? Why haven't you applied for amnesty for this incident?

MR WANGA: I think there was a mistake, maybe it's among the forms that were not mentioned. I think I did mention it in the other forms, maybe it only appears in the other forms that were not mentioned here.

MS PATEL: No, I can assure you that this incident is not mentioned in your application forms. In fact you didn't even mention it in your evidence in chief? Can you explain or do you not have a response?

MR WANGA: I am applying for amnesty including all these incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is have you applied, have you completed an application form for those acts and if so, when because we have three applications before us and none of those applications has any bearing on the other acts that you have been questioned about.

MR WANGA: I'm not in a position to say why but all the applications that I have forwarded, all those applications are supposed to be here. It is a surprise to me to find out that there are incidents that are said not to be appearing in my application.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Wanga, are you suggesting that you submitted more than three application forms for amnesty other than the three we have here, there could be more applications we're having?

MR WANGA: No that is not what I'm trying to say.

ADV MOTATA: Then the question is why didn't you apply for amnesty for this incident you have just told us about the day before the Kirkwood farm because it also occurred in Kirkwood, why did you not apply for amnesty, I think that's what Ms Patel is looking for. Am I right Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: That is correct.

MR WANGA: I think that is my mistake if I did not mention that, if I did not ask for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you assisted in completing any of the applications that you submitted to the TRC, were you assisted by anyone at any stage in completing those apart from the one that you already testified that you completed on your own?

MR WANGA: There's nothing else, there was no one helping.

CHAIRPERSON: Who typed the application that appears on page 36?

MR WANGA: These are the applications that are submitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the application I'm referring to on page 36 and is that your signature that appears on page 41?

MR WANGA: Yes that is my signature.

MS PATEL: Who completed that application for you, it's obviously typed, did you type it yourself?

MR WANGA: We did not have any typing facility. Maybe it was typed somewhere else.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you, how did you sign it, don't you know who assisted you, who came in with a typed application form which was signed? You don't recall?

MR WANGA: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you in completing the application that appears on page 43?

MR WANGA: Our leaders assisted me.

CHAIRPERSON: Your leaders where, which leaders are you referring to?

MR WANGA: It was Mr Ntonga. Among the first people who came to visit us was Mr Ntonga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he a member of the PAC?

MR WANGA: Yes he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you explained to him the acts in respect of which amnesty was being sought?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What standard have you passed Mr Wanga?

MR WANGA: I went up to Standard 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Standard 9. You were able to see that in respect of your last application the acts that were identified were robbery, possession of firearms and escape and the dates that were given in respect of those acts were the 28th November 1988 and the 15th October 1989 respectively and the places identified in your application was Kirkwood near Port Elizabeth? You saw that?

MR WANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't question why they had omitted to include the other acts in respect of which you also wanted amnesty for?

MR WANGA: I did not notice.

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